I have tried using the technique of targe/dirk in left hand and sword in right.
I can't for the life of me get a good grip on the dirk having both targe grip and
dirk grip in one hand.

Now I have medium sized hands and am most likely bigger than most mid-18th
century fellas.  How did they do this?

I've seen period paintings and such showing this tech., but is it really accurate?

dave

Yes, I'm pretty sure it is David. In this case, the targe would be guided by it's guige strap on your shoulder, and be held in place by the enarme for the forearm - you hold no enarme in your hand, only the grip of your dirk.

You are voiding the incoming blow by redirecting it with the targ, rather than using it like a brick wall to stop something - notice in the Morrier painting how the swordsmen hold their shields edge on. There are very few contemporary references to broadsword and targ use, but some HWMA practitioners are trying to reconstruct technique from the sources available.

The painting "An incident at Culloden", which is near contemporary, shows the front rank men advancing with dirk, targ, and sword, and the wards they are painted in do equate to the wards shown in the Pennichuck sketches, and other sources,m and they do match wards seen in Medieval German manuals closely - there is every reason to think that we see freeze frames of realistic technique in the few sources we have, from the other knowledge gathered by students of Western Martial arts.

Thanks Bob!

That helps alot.  I'm going to give it a try right now.

dave

One more thing,

If your targ is reconstructed poroperly, I believe you can ajdust the enarmes (the straps) so that the leather will be close to your forearm, and your strap you can stick your and in to grip can just as well sit over your wrist.

The technique would go something like this, with the targe more or less firmly in place on your left forearm - you are jogging toward your target edge on, ideally as you hiit the front rank your right foot will be the one forward, so you scoot your targe under the bayonet as you advance your left foot, lifting the targ away to your left side - with that motion, your dirk, which is in an icepick grip is stuck into the fellows abdomen. Your sword will be in either an open ward, (the walpurgis as it was called would be appropriate), or something resembling the German "ochs" (from either ward, you can deliver a powerful crossing cut), and you would as you were stepping forward on your right foot have that foot following your downward cut, which would be disecting your second rank man in a diagonal cut across the right to left, at the head or shoulder/neck of your opponent. Considering the cut sould be delivered at speed in forward motion, this would explain various British reports of tops of skulls being sliced off, near decapitations, and even bayonetts being cut (at Killickranky, one Donald MacBane - then an adolescent in the Government forces, who later wrote a famous treatise on swordsmanship, and who was a renouned swordsman - had the wooden handle of his plug bayonet cut through by a charging highlander, disarming him. He then ran away, and played a game of tag with the same fellow round a government horse, before making his famous leap across the brook, but I digress.). The potential power of such blows, and the crippling, disfiguring wounds they would leave is one of the reasons the Government forces hated facing the highland charge through most of the various Jacobite uprisings.

I hope this helps you envision the technique. I know it would require a lot of practise on my part to successfully carry it out.

Hi Bob-

Just gave it a try and it does help, alot.  Putting you hand through the hand grip
adds much stablity to the targe.

dave

Hey Bob,

Your points are well taken.  Being new to this hobby I thought the idea of adding a way for folks like me to get a feel for sword and targe with little chance of getting hurt would be handy (I can hurt myself quick enough)!  I understand what you are saying but maybe start with a "boffer", step up to wood and go on to blunts.  You are right about all the negative aspects of the idea but it sure sounds like fun to me!

Rick  ;D

Righto-Rick. :)

I would love to practise the technique, and even though I have a fair ammount of experience, I would only do so with a fellow who was a competant martial arts student familiar with musket and bayonet, that I trusted, and it would have to be done at something like half speed to be safe. With much practise, and a trained team of skilled men, you might actually be able to replicate the technique at something like speed - it would take a lot of work though. I'm not sure I would trust myself without a year or two under my belt working with sword and targ - most of my experience has been with Late Medieval longsword, and renaissance rapier and dagger - working with targ and claymore is somewhat of a departure for me.

The contemporay Morier painting indicates that the dirk-in-left-hand-with-targe technique was used, as Bob states.  But, I remember reading something somewhere (don't you hate that!) by a fellow who got to examine surviving targes in collections in Scotland, some of which still had their original arm straps and hand grips in place.  He stated that given the configuration of said straps and grips, and their locations on the backs of these original targes, he did NOT see how the targe could be worn and a dirk grasped in the left hand effectively.
Probably just a case of a modern guy missing something obvious, but interesting....

Most of the replica targes over here in GB have hand straps that are way too big. People think they have just put their arms through and they'll stay in place. The other problem is dirks with large diametre grips. Look at the originals and they are thin. With a small grip on both you can easily hold both.
Look at the back of the targe on my site www.foxblade.co.uk

I think the big issue with Targe and Dirk in one hand is as Tod said, grip size of both.

Oh, and for those interested there is only one source dealing with the Sword and Targe. Written by Thomas Page, a Government Artillery Officer during the '45. I think it was Norwich's artillery.

http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Page/

Thank you very much for posting this website address.  It is very interesting and useful reading, not only for its historical presentation on the martial arts as concerns Highland warfare and swordsmanship, but for the language and manner of writing of the time period that we re-enact, which will improve my own writing, especially to nobility, members of peerage, and all those of much higher station in life than my own as a humble Highland vicar.

An interesting article with lots of info about Thomas Page.

http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Articles/Jenkins/Contextualising.php

Page is currently providing an interesting discussion in the WMA world, because we cannot say for certain whether or not his fighting system is highland or not.

The article is worth reading for the facts about Page.