I know this must sound like a crazy question to some of you, but I am on another board where folks are saying that the Highlanders of 1746 and before always removed their kilts before battle due to weight of the fabric.  And, they took their linen shirts and tied them around their crotch (sorry to be so specific).  Here is the source many are using and I know you all would know the truth, so I can accurately tell the truth to folks who come to our 1745 Jacobite camp.  Thanks so much for your help.

Oops, forgot the add the site where folks are getting this information.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_scots.html

Hello, Rose!  It's been a while since I have seen your name pop up here on the forum.  I hope your holidays were wonderful.
From everything I have read, all of the drawings and paintings that I have seen, and all of the "experts" (aren't we all?) that I have heard on the subject of dress for battle, it depends on who you were, where you were from, and what the weather was like as to what a Jacobite wore into battle.  I can't believe that any Highlander in his right mind would have considered shedding any wool on the bitter cold and wet Drummossie Moor before or during the Battle of Culloden.  
Those who wore woolen trews would not have removed them before battle.  Those who wore wee kilts probably would not have removed them before battle.  Those who wore great kilts may or may not have chosen to leave them behind before entering the fray, both for economic reasons (wool, especially the "whole nine yards" has never been cheap) and for military considerations (ease and speed of movement), or to leave them on for warmth in battles taking place during foul weather.  I cannot for the life of me remember seeing any depictions of Jacobites in battle in only their shirtsleeves, but that may be simply because there are yet a lot of paintings and drawings that I have not come across yet.

Hi Rose,

I think the idea of Jacobites going into battle in their shirts only is more or less a myth (probably given greater appeal during the Victorian-period). There is, from what I've read, only one battle in Highland history which tell of warriors discarding their plaids and running about in their shirts alone, and that battle was called "Battle of the shirts". http://www.clan-cameron.org/battles/1544.html
I think I have read somewhere that highlanders discarded their plaids during the battle of Killiecrankie as well, but don't remember the source. The reason given in both the one above in 1544 and Killiecrankie in 1689 was that it was in the middle of the summer and the weather was good and hot.

Given the fact that neither the battle of Falkirk or Culloden was fought on warm days (both featuring wind and rain, and a wee bit of snow), I think it's unreasonable to think any man would throw his good warm plaid off. I'm a bit unsure of Prestonpans, but that battle was fought in the morning, and that usually isn't the warmest time of day (not even in September :P ).

Cheers,
Henrik

so sorry I have been away for so long! I always learn so much on here!  I will try not to be a stranger.  You all are such a gem!  For one thing, I lost your website addy and it took me awhile to acquire it again.  :-[

I just felt in my heart that the Highlanders did not remove their kilts while in battle, but the gals on the site I am on kept saying so and included the one source I posted in here. So because I am an 18thc re-enactor and "living historian" I wanted to make sure what I felt was true was backed up by you all as you all have tons more experience  than me.  

many thanks to all and any more info is more than welcome! Thanks!  :)

The Highlanders did not throw off their plaids and kilts to fight in battles.  The one noteworthy instance Henrik mentions from the 1500's WAS noteworthy because of how unusual the occasion was - a very hot day.

The Black Watch charged the French lines at Ticonderoga in the middle of July 1758, and did not take off their plaids... and there is no mention of such a practice during the Jacobite period a decade earlier.

Your gal friends are simply wrong...!

Many many, thanks, Brian!  I found it hard to believe cause didn't clans identify each other in battle by the tartan they wore?  Feel free to educate me more if any of you so would like.  thanks!  :)

Now, what about when the Highlanders were our working on their fields and such, the gals said that the Highlanders removed their kilts and wore only their shirts and tied "between their legs."  Anyone if there is any truth to that?  I feel so silly asking these questions but as some of you  know, we as re-enactors get asked all kinds of questions and I just feel I need to know.  From my research, I find nothing mentioned about this either!  So would appreciate your sharing any knowledge of this as well...thanks!

Oh, I realized why I have not received any replies on this site. My pc crashed way back in April of last year and I lost everything!!  I forgot to change my email on this site when I got the new pc and signed up for broadband as well. Plus, it helped to find the site again, thanks to a friend!  Now I am back in business here with you all.  

I forgot to say hello to the Vicar and hope you and yours are doing well and will have a terrific new year!  Love your avatar pic, btw!  Take care! :)



I have another silly question too, but that will be for another thread.  ;)

I'll let the tartan guys answer the question about battleground identification (my guess is that they'll tell you identification was done more by plant badges than by thread count, with a brief allusion to regional native dyes being of peripheral use in identifying where someone's wool might have come from). Trying to ID tartan on the fly with smoke all around is an exercise in futility, especially when nothing was standardised.

I just can't believe that no one's yet figured out that the "shirt tied between the legs" thing was invented by female reenactors solely for the purpose of convincing men to get their kit off more often.

Bahahahhaha! That is a great answer, Webbie! I love it!  many thanks!  :)

HAHAHA! Great answer!  ;D

As the Webmistress said, clan-plant badges on the bonnets was the way to show which clan you belonged to rather than by the tartan.
And, no, I don't think men walked around in their shirt-tails. Walking around with bare thighs was a bit taboo, I think. Just like walking around without at least a waistcoat to hide your shirt (which was the undies of the day). Breeches was far more common in the Highlands at the time than many of the modern day Jacobites will accept :P and I think many workers would rather wear that than a plaid when doing something that got one wet and dirty. From what I've read the plaid was most of all the garb of the warriors, and that there was some sort of pride connected to the wearing of it. I think Brian might help you more than me on this. :)

Cheers,
Henrik

The plaid, along with (later) the philabeg, were the everyday, workaday outdoors dress of the highlanders in pre-Proscription times.  One should not attach romantic "warrior garb" status to these items, as they were worn by cattle drovers, boatmen, oat farmers, ghillies, and any others who spent most of their time employed out-of-doors in that culture.  For the poor clansman, his plaid was worn and worked in all day, slept in all night, and became rather nastily odorous!  
As Henrik says, these fellows were not averse to donning typical knee-breeches either. but for "in-the-field" usage, bare legs were preferred in the wet, heathery, boggy environment of the Highlands.  That's why the kilt evolved there, afterall (Celts having always been a trouser wearing people).
And, I do recall a period reference to clansmen going about in only their shirt-tails, but only at home and in one's own house.  Perhaps it was in Burt's "Letters"....

I would also be willing to go along with partial disrobing around the home...it's pretty well accepted that women would shed some layers of clothing when working at home, why not men? And I know I've read of visitors being appalled by highlanders/islanders going outside naked in the mornings to heed the call of nature (and to pass the time until the smoke from the fire got above chest level indoors). That said, it was a cold era in a cold climate, and my thought is that sweltering days did not happen terribly often. Add to this that not everyone lived in a remote and isolated area that was untraveled, and in such cases, would likely have maintained some sort of decorum.

And yes, I definitely agree that breeches were more prevalent than thought, particularly in the northeast and the Trossachs. We know that MacGregor of Glencarnoch had some very fancy battle clothes made (or at least ordered the fabric for such), notably breeches, drawers, and boot hose, without a scrap of plaid in the order; I doubt that he was a lone breeches-wearing whacko in the Jacobite army. If he was, he was a goshdarned well-dressed whacko living far beyond his means.

Personally, I can say that every engraving or representation of highland blacksmiths I've seen shows them wearing breeches and chaps (ever try to shoe a horse in a kilt??)...and that fact alone is enough to get one in double-deep trouble with some reenactor-types ("noooooooooo, they all wore kilts!!!")  ::).  The plaid is a remarkably utilitarian garment, well-suited to the environment in which it was used (and IMO, it shouldn't really be thought of as anything else from a sociological standpoint...I am notably unromantic), but I'm pretty convinced that it could be (and was) replaced by more suitable clothing when circumstances dictated.

Sorry Brian, I think you're right. The "warrior-garb" thing must have been some later notion because of its' use in the Army etc.

I didn't know about the clansmen walking about in their shirttails. Interesting. These clansmen must have been either of the mid-ranker or rear-ranker sort, then..? I find it hard to believe that any Highland Gentleman would do it. After all, they were peacocks with a sence of both fashion and, as our Webmistress said, decorum.

Is there any modern print of the "Letters..." by Burt available?

Cheers,
Henrik

Thanks again, everyone.  Seems it would be hard to identify the plant on their bonnet as well from all the smoke during battle though.   I watched the PBS special "Battlefield Britian" yesterday.  It was a re-enactment of the battle of Culloden. Did anyone see this?  Of course, everyone wore their Great kilts and such for the battle and noting the weather at the time, I was sure they did.

I also noticed their shoes. They were 18th c with buckles. I didn't see anyone wearing ghillies.  Which was more the norm, ghillies or shoes of the day with buckles?  I had read somewhere and wish now I had the site where mostly women Highlanders or Jacobites wore ghillies (a lot of times barefoot), but if one of the soliders needed shoes, the camp follower always gave up her shoes to him and most the time they were ghillies. Anyone care to correct me on that issue now?  Now I have gone from kilts to shoes!  ;)

Rosemary,
What you are running into is quite typical of historical re-enactors.  There are more than enough "experts" and far too little documentary evidence upon which their "expertise" is based.  I know that folks like Brian, Henrik, the Webmistress, Larry and Missy Clark of Barkertown Sutlers and myself do our best to be reasonably well informed on such matters as these, and yet, if you were to poll the lot of us on any particular item of clothing, you would probably come up with as wide a variety of responses as you would have in personalities.  
The other aspect is that Scots, most particularly Highland Scots are a hard lot to pin down with generalities.  They had their own traditions and rationale, and didn't care one whit for anyone else's.  
They dressed for practicality, not fashion, when working and fighting, unless they were well-off enough financially to do otherwise.  Kilts or trews, hose or barefoot, buckle shoes or ghillies, they were all matters of practicality and affordability.  If they weren't wealthy enough to buy buckle shoes which had to be made by a cobbler, they made their own currans or ghillies, or went without.  If they preferred the versatility and utilitarian qualities of the great kilt or wee kilt with plaid, that's what they wore.  If they were more Continental in their personal taste in fashion and had a wife or relative clever enough with shears, needle and thread to tailor a pair of trews, then that was what they wore.  
I would think that a great kilt or wee kilt and plaid would have been much more durable than trews, and afforded much greater freedom of movement (and freedom when nature called), and so may well have been the choice of more Highlanders than not in the mid 18th century, but that's just my opinion, no better or worse than yours or anyone else's.
Back to the "fighting stripped to the shirt sleeves" issue, I would have to agree with those who feel that it would be by far the exception for a Highlander to be seen in public (as most battles were) in his underwear without both kilt and waistcoat on.  
Sans kilt would also imply sans kilt belt and all that would have hung from it, such as sporran and dirk, good weights to keep a kilt down in front in a stiff wind (hence my definition of the difference between a rich and poor Highlander--the rich one had enough coin in his sporran to hold down his kilt in a stiff wind!).  What would have kept the lightweight linen or raw silk shirt down with no such weights?  I am not sure how the shirt might have been securely tied between the legs to keep the Highlander from exposing himself to any and all spectators during battle.  I would choose to ignore the speculation of any who would state emphatically that it was a regular practice for Highlanders to fight in only their shirts, except in extreme exceptions, such as extremely warm temperatures, as previously stated was the case at the Battle of the Shirts (Kin-Loch-Lochy) in 1544 and Killiecrankie in 1689.
Rule of thumb, if it sounds like an emphatic statement of fact about the fine points of what Highlanders wore when and where, it is probably more hot air than hard fact.  Think like a practical, penny-pinching spend-thrift in the hard times and harsh environment of the Highlands of the mid 18th century, and you will probably arrive at a very reasonable conclusion! Relax about the details and just concentrate on getting the general facts of Scottish history down and you will enjoy our very addictive hobby more.
Alba aye!
 

Once again, Vicar! You are always wise and give me such kind and gracious advice...no matter what crazy question I ask.  And I appreciate everyone's answer immensely as well.  You all have been so wonderful! As a re-enactor, I am sure there are those of you who are come across some really crazy questions asked of you (don't you?) and then there are people coming to your camp with stories  who feel they know it all and want to tell you otherwise as to what you think you know and have studied! Since I am trying to be a "living historian"  I want to know and teach the truth the best I can as I am sure is the mission of all of you. It is hard being a rookie in this area, but I am reading, researching and when in doubt, I ask.  I have submitted my questions to other groups, but you all are the ones who came to my rescue.  Many many thanks again for your time and kind patience.  

YHS,  Rosemary

Rosemary,
I would just like to add my personal opinion about the Battlefield Britain series (and especially their episodes dealing with Jacobite history). I think they are badly researched and have a too unbalanced portraial of the both the events and people involved.
The reenactors in the series also seem to suffer from bad research and too many typical notions of how the Jacobites fought. I think I only saw two or three (of some 30) Jacobite-reenactors wearing jackets, and only two or three muskets. And nearly every plaid and shirt-clad highlander are wielding basket hilted broadswords! >:(

I think we should all be very critical to use TV-documentaries as sources. Personally I've found that reading, and discussing the '45 with the friendly people on forums such as this and the Scottish and Border Forum at SFI are very good ways to get aquainted with the period and its' history. :) I'm very grateful that there are forums such as this one, because it has given me so much! :)

Cheers,
Henrik

oh thanks,  Henrik!  Very good to get some feedback.  Because I am a woman, I don't know and/or notice all the details of the fighting men like you guys would. In time I hope to get better at it all. I do well enough to focus on the women of the day!  ;)

But I so appreciate hearing feedback about this series cause I was wondering what you all thought.  Perhaps we should start a new thread concerning the series? Or has there been one started already that I have failed to see?

I am very grateful to you, Henrikl

Rosemary

Well, regarding shoes...there was more than one way to come by shoes. There's a great story about the MacGregors of Glengyle during the 1715 rebellion...they noticed a large group of whigs exiting a church, very well-dressed, and so walked over and "requested" their shoes, waiting while the rich gentlemen sat down on the curb to remove them. Now, most of these sort of stories are largely romantic twaddle, but it does make the point that shoes didn't have to be bought to be worn. Women went largely barefoot around home, but generally put on some sort of shoes to go out and about. I don't think that it's possible to say "everyone wore gillies" or "everyone had buckled shoes," I think modern interpretation is more a matter of what each of us is willing or able to put up with. I can't go barefoot because I am allergic to bees and would rather not step on one...so even when I'm doing po'folk, I have hard-soled shoes on...I know that it's not really as accurate as it could be, but I have to work within my abilities and what I feel comfortable doing.

As far as men in shirttails, I think that there were far fewer "highland gentlemen" than we assume. Most (at least IMO) may have been gentlemen of circumstance in a military situation, but at home with the wife and kids, they were just another guy like everyone else. And remember...even now, the same guy who wears a three-piece suit to work comes home to his wife and changes into sweatpants. We're less formal at home, and I think that holds through history to some extent or another.

Since the Vicar's shared his philosophy, I'll add my own rule of thumb (which I think I may have filched from WH Murray...either him or Hamilton Howlett): When two opinions on the same subject are diametrically opposed and deeply held, it's likely that neither is the whole truth, and the real truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle. We all have our own personal filters and prejudices on history that draw us toward one side or the other of that middle ground....I think the key is identifying where our own leanings are, and why we have them, because then we can think around our own minds and see the big picture.

Edited to add: I am also deeply cynical about documentaries, especially ones that use volunteer reenactors or footage of reenactments, just because there's no central authority to coordinate and balance the costumes properly. Then again, Tim says that seeing a costume film with me is like being in "Mystery Science Theater 3000" because I riff on the inaccuracies so badly. ;)

Henrik_B._Boegh wrote on 01/16/07 at 04:29:17:

Is there any modern print of the "Letters..." by Burt available? Cheers, Henrik

It's still available in a paperback reprint:

http://www.amazon.com/Burts-Letters-North-Scotland-Edmund/dp/1874744904/sr=1-1/qid=1169042641/ref=sr_1_1/002-9303279-2844829?ie=UTF8&s=books

Hi  
I thought I'd add my bit from over here in the UK.
Wearing a plaid around the house is not practical. Lace Wars worked up at the Highland folk Museum, and I've worked there on my own. What was clear was that in the houses (these are true 100% correct reconstruction's of mid 18th century Highland houses and barns) was that you couldn't work very well, and when moving about you had to be careful not to knock things over, that was if you pocketed the loose ends of your plaid. If you pinned (note no broaches!) it to you jacket it was just as cumbersome. So I ended up taking my plaid off. My shirt is long and the pattern came from a bog body so I know it to be correct. It covers up every thing, unless I sat down legs apart, which I didn’t. Even though it has triangular gussets it didn’t blow up in the wind and show any thing. So it would be fair to say that Highlanders did not wear the full plaid all the time. If you wear the little kilt there is no problem at all. There is a piece in Burt's letters describing him meeting a laird or the like in just his shirt and jacket. By the way I always wore my belt over my shirt as it had my knife and sporran on it.

Regarding “warrior wear”. There was no such thing. Clan warfare had almost disappeared by the end of the 17th century. Yes there were fights, but not wars. No one in the clan structure could ever be described as warrior. Cattle thief yes, warrior no.

Shoes, I make historic shoes and had to do a ton of research to get it right. Although I went to shoe making college that only taught me how to make patterns (designs) not how to completely hand make shoes. A shoe maker is a shoemaker or Cordwainer, a cobbler is some one who mends shoes (maybe some you know the expression " a load of cobblers"?). In the 18th century shoes varied hugely. Like today fashion did not change on a specific date. Brogues were normal wear in the Highlands and are just a glorified piece of leather made up to fit the foot. Next there were closed shoes, even the well off wore these, they are the same as 17th century closed shoes and are welted construction. Next buckle shoes, worn by the better off as you had to buy the buckles and the shoes! Women went barefoot a lot of the time as did the children. That doesn’t mean they all did or all the time. But it was common. Women’s shoes are of a different type to men’s (brogues would be the same). They have a heel and are more pointed.

The Battlefield Britain is a bit of a sore point with me. It was made by the BBC and supported by English Heritage (EH). The filming was done with out us, and yes its rubbish, White shirted Highlanders with no guns AGAIN! The programme was shown on a Friday evening in the UK (first showing). As with the whole series at the end Peter Snow’s son said “if you want to see a re-enactment of the (’45) go to (Carlisle castle) this week end.  Carlisle castle is run by EH. About six week before this I got a call from a middle man. A guy who books re-enactors for EH. Guess what they had no re-enactors. LW were already booked out for the week after. I got together 6 of us who went up for the event. EH got a couple of sets of rubbish hire kit to make up two more Redcoats. So we had a few Jacobites and a few Redcoats. They then got another part time actor who dressed up as a Jacobite, he got to told where to get off by me after trying to mess things up. They then got some pantomime kit for a BPC. The week end was joke. Several months later EH put on a festival of history with all the periods from the BBC programmes in one place. We were asked go as a group. It was shambles. For a big group they really messed up.  

If any one wants our (Rose and Thistle who are part of Lace Wars) kit guide drop me a line through the Lace Wars web site www.lacewars.co.uk  and I’ll forward it to you. We have both men and women’s references.

Slainte
Tod

Tod,

would that be the shirt from the Murder victim from Arnish Moor on Lewis? Do you have a picture from the Highland Folk Museum of yourself from that event?

By the way, I noticed you've updated the RaT website. I like the new gallery-presentation.

Cheers,
Henrik

Hi
If you mail the web master from the RaT web site (Steve) I think he has a group picture of us there. It used to be on the old site. The pattern is from the murder victim. It's available as a pattern. If you mail me your address I'll do a copy for you, and take pictures of mine.
Tod

Hey Tod! Thank you  very much for all your time in giving any information re this matter. I appreciate it muchly!  makes much sense as to what you said concerning shirts vs kilts.  Thanks for educating me concerning "warrior wear." I also heard there was no such thing as a "Jacobite shirt." Is that true?  I know in modern day dress they call it that, but in earlier days, would they have called it that or just a shirt?  

many thanks!  :)

Hi
The good old Jacobite shirt  ;D
Believe me there was no such thing, however if you go to Edinburgh there are planty of tourist shops that will sell you one. When I search on ebay I have to trawl through so many of them it's unreal.
Shirts in the 18th century were all pretty much the same. They didn't have big "Batwing" type collars like many of the supposed re-enactors over here wear. They were also a lot longer than many people think, coming almost to the knee in many cases. Mostly they were linen, and losse fitting. Although the Scottish Highland ones and those from the more rural areas (most of the population lived out of town in the 18th century) tended to have better fitting sleeves. I think this was because they were easier to work in.
If you want any more info. just ask.
Tod

Hey Tod! I got to thinking that if Highlanders had very long shirts, then it would be no surprise if any or all would take that heavy warm kilt off now and then when working around the home..depending on weather and circumstances. I had heard they were so long that they had taken the kilts off battle, which is why I started this thread.

Thanks for clarifying the Jacobite shirt. I know the name is very popular at today's  events, but I doubted it to be such beyond the 18thc.   Thanks so much, Tod!

It stands to reason that in close quarters, one would get rid of all that cloth...Now, I spend most of my time in boots, jeans and turtlenecks at home/work, so I have to practice with the court-width paniers before I go to an event or I will clear every table I encounter with the unexpected expansion of my hips (OK, I'm a klutz as well). Back in the days when "Duncan" wore a plaid and I had a small tent, I was continually running into stuff and knocking things over. It's not logical to wear the thing in tight situations where you don't really *need* to be dressed...no different than stripping down to waistcoat when you're wearing a suit of clothes because the coat just gets tangled in everything (and the stitching at the top of the back vent is REAL easy to tear, especially on silk, don't ask me how I know this  >:().

I'm short, so I never had an issue with shirt length, but one time I had a manservant with me who is 6' 4" and I never even *thought* about shirts, just gave him one of our spares. Needless to say, when he was belting on the plaid, we had to throw ourselves in front of him to keep passers-by from getting a free show. I should also add that he said later that he was tempted to strip off his plaid while working in the tent/kitchen because he kept getting caught on things (given the length of his shirt, I'm glad he didn't!).

Is a Jacobite shirt one of those huge-collared things with the ugly yokes and laces up the front?

Tod...can you define "better-fitting sleeves?" Do you mean closer-fitting? Is the change in the cut of the sleeve or the fitting to the body of the shirt? Or both?

Hi
my shirt has closer fitting sleeves. I suppose tighter would be another way of putting it. I'm going by memory but I think the triangular gussets start form the hip, and flare out.
I'll try and get a picture if I can EVER work out how to put them on here!
Mine also fits the body well or did but since shedding the fat and gaining muscle (gyms are excellent out of season) it may fit a bit better ;)

Tod wrote on 01/22/07 at 18:34:29:

I think he has a group picture of us there.

do you mean this one.  That's a Blackhouse behind us.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peanutsmum/webpics/rat2.jpg