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Latter-day Jacobites (Read 33987 times)
11/23/03 at 12:00:04

Brian Carpenter   Offline
Unit Commander
Port Crane, NY

Posts: 237
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Well, this should open a can of worms...!  I was curious about the Forum's opinions re: today's "real" Jacobites, as opposed to those of us who simply portray 18th C. ones.
My clan group has some folks so inclined, as does this Forum: people who look towards an actual restoration of the Stewart line, as embodied in the person of one Prince Michael of Albany, who claims to be the legitimate heir of that dynasty.  Many experts on European royalty dismiss his claim as nonsense; others are convinced of his legitimacy.
Personally, I'm doubtful.  I fully support Scottish independence, but I think in that effort the Scottish people would do well to simply ditch the idea of kings and royalty!  In my Americanized opinion - who needs 'em...?!
Anyways, to learn more about Prince Michael, go to:

www.royalhouseofstewart.org.uk/

 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #1 - 11/23/03 at 14:02:07

collin_king   Offline
Senior Member
Collin King AKA Srgt Calien
Mac Gregor
tampa florida

Posts: 76
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My thoughts...confused I have Prince Micheals book and its actulay a great read..and for a while i was afirm beliver...but evently there are alot of nay sayers out there,,that produced proof that Michael lafoose's claim is false....I'm up in the air
there is alot of people of tthat claim that the roya house of Liechtenstein is the only true Heir to the big seat....

so I'm up in the air
 

A prince can mak a belted knight, &&A marquis, duke, an a' that! &&But an honest man's aboon his might - &&Guid faith, he mauna fa' that! &&For a' that, an a' that, &&Their dignities, an a' that, &&
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Reply #2 - 11/23/03 at 14:47:09

Alex Good McCracken   Offline
Unit Commander
Part of a rebel alliance...
Columbus, Ohio

Posts: 129
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Personally, I don't see much difference in
a system that has a President as a head
of state (with the Prime Minister holding
the political power), versus one that has
a King or Queen as a head of state. Other than the extra money spent, there
is really no difference. The rub is whether
or not you want that continuity with the
past. It's said that Queen Elizabeth and
the royals bring more money into the UK
than they cost in tourism. If that's true,
then a monarchy alone is worth keeping
it around. Personally, were I in Scotland, I'd prefer the idea of swearing allegiance to a monarach rather than yet another
politician. And with a monarch, you have
a lifetime of continuity, and service to
the state, rather than to a party.

As for Michael, I'm pretty sure he's a
fraud. But there are others that claim
descent from Bonnie Prince Charlie, not
to mention the currently accepted
Stuart descendant, an Austrian I
believe. I'm not one to toss traditions
into the garbage just because they're
inconvenient or simply old. I've seen
too many old and aesthetically cool
buildings torn down in my time and
replaced by utter garbage, and it would
be a shame for that to happen to the
monaracy.

Alex
 
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Reply #3 - 11/23/03 at 18:15:17

Steve_S   Offline
Senior Member
Leicester,U.K.

Posts: 87
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O.K...constitutional point...U.K does not have "rightful" kings,or "kings by descent"...all that matters is that they have been crowned as ruler(see "Johnny English..)...It doesn't matter what claimants turn up...they are only a historical curiosity until they get the Archbish. of Canterbury to do the Biz!....As for modern Stuart heirs...most believable follows a polish line...& I can't remember the author's name!.....Fought my way through Prince Michael's stuff...would have been easier to follow if it had started in the 18thcent......having said that,one of his "nobles"....has written a work showing Stuart descent from King Arthur,Roman Emperors, and....Jesus Christ..and people think reenactors are weird!                                                 
Steve(currently revising his claim to the Holy Roman Empire)
 
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Reply #4 - 11/23/03 at 18:17:31

Steve_S   Offline
Senior Member
Leicester,U.K.

Posts: 87
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And by the way...The only "lost" claimants that would get my support would go by the name of Cromwell........
Steve
 
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Reply #5 - 11/23/03 at 20:00:10

Brian Carpenter   Offline
Unit Commander
Port Crane, NY

Posts: 237
*****
 
Alex, et al,

We (in the former "colonies") rejected allegiance to that same monarchy 225+ years ago, and it has worked out fairly well for us!
Similar bold steps might be in order for the Scottish nation; either that or remain simply the northern extension of Britain she's been since the Union of the Crowns (the 1707 Act of Union merely making "official" what was already a reality). 
I'll take politicians over kings any day!  The former can be voted out, recalled, impeached, jailed, etc, etc....
 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #6 - 11/24/03 at 09:41:07

collin_king   Offline
Senior Member
Collin King AKA Srgt Calien
Mac Gregor
tampa florida

Posts: 76
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Orange Lodge's plan to mark Culloden'bizarre'
By Auslan Cramb, Scottish Correspondent
(Filed: 22/11/2003)


A plan to celebrate the English victory at Culloden in 1746, the famous rout of Bonnie Prince Charlie's Jacobite forces, was described as "bizarre and offensive" yesterday.

The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland has not marched in the Highlands for nearly 15 years but officials said it was considering holding a religious service at the scene of the battle outside Inverness to remember the English soldiers who died there.

The Duke of Cumberland's Hanoverian soldiers defeated the Jacobite army in what many Protestants consider an important victory. Every year, Orangemen hold controversial marches celebrating the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 when King William of Orange defeated James II on a battlefield outside Dublin.

It has been suggested that similar celebrations might be held next April 16 on Culloden Moor. Robert MacLean, executive officer of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland, said the battle was an important event in the history of the Scottish reformed church.

"I do not see us staging a march in the Culloden area but it is possible that we may arrange a service to commemorate the battle," he said.

However, Peter Kearney, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Church, said a religious ceremony should only remember those who died on both sides. "The idea that anyone would like to celebrate the victory of the Hanoverian forces in the Highlands of Scotland is, to say the least, bizarre, if not downright offensive, bearing in mind the ethnic cleansing that followed," he said. "It is fair to say that the Highlands has never fully recovered from the onslaught."

Fergus Ewing, the local Scottish National Party MSP, said the proposed service was "madcap", adding: "There's no place for sectarianism in the Highlands."

After the battle, the clan system was brutally dismantled, the castles and the land of Jacobite chiefs seized and the wearing of the kilt and the speaking of Gaelic prohibited
 

A prince can mak a belted knight, &&A marquis, duke, an a' that! &&But an honest man's aboon his might - &&Guid faith, he mauna fa' that! &&For a' that, an a' that, &&Their dignities, an a' that, &&
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Reply #7 - 11/24/03 at 11:16:49

Jacobite   Offline
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Aberdeen/Scotland

Posts: 42
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As a latter day Jacobite I agree the mists of time and history have thrown up a number of claims ,as for Prince Michael he puts across his argument well,can we be 100% certain that he is who he claims to be? no but then again who in their right mind in the situation of the mid to  late 18th century would claim to be the true Stewart heir,they would keep their heads down it was only later when the Sobieskis and Rohanstarts came along and were not seen as a threat that it became fashionable.Back to Michael though,what I do believe firmly is that he believes that he is who he says he is, he is an articulate intelligent man who I am sure could well do without some of the problems he has to put up with yet he remains firm to his claim,he lives in Scotland and cares passionately about Scotland and her future and Scotland could do much worse than have him as head of state.
 

Heres Tae The King Sir Ye Ken who I mean Sir
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Reply #8 - 11/24/03 at 12:09:49

Caledonianreb   Offline
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

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Believing that Prince Michael is legitimate is sort of like those who believe in God and those that do not ..... some things are difficult to prove ... but the sun will come up tomorrow ... it's a faith.

You can't judge a man simply by books and others opinions .... you must meet him for yourself and then decide.  I've met him several times and became an offcier in Army of loyal followers ...... but was not all convinced at first .... too many varibale both  pros and cons.  I am now totslly convince to his right to the title. 

My question would be .... why will lthe British government not allow him to leave and vist  America ....why do they hassle him on his trips abroad taking away visas and his Maltese passport....what do they fear ... why no passport?  Anyway, I keep in touch with my Scottish freinds daily and visit at least once a year.  Prince Michael is in the company during many public appearances with other notable and traditional Jacobites from the past ...... with the present Earl of Mar and Duke of Montorse to the chagrin of the royals

If Scotland wants a monarchy ... that's for Scotland to decide ....a Constitional Monarchy seems to work well in in many Europen countires.  WE broke away from the House of Hanover ... and it was the best thing that happened to us ..... I have no trouble with the house of Stuart. 

I re-enact, but I take it more seriously.  I do not do it because I have nothing better to do on the weekends ..... it history and it's blood...

Yours aye,

Caledonianreb
 
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Reply #9 - 11/24/03 at 17:11:33

Rebel_Highlander   Offline
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Aberdeenshire/Scotland

Posts: 9
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As a Jacobite living in today's Scotland I live with the oppression of the present English government. A government that has refused to allow Scotland her own freedom  and  is draining  us of our wealth our traditions and  in general using us for  their own means.
I visited the Grandfather Mountain games this year and it showed me clearly how over the years the British government have managed to brain wash people through the education system when I saw  Union Jacks flying over the clan tents, for example The St Andrews Society of North Carolina, this education, don't get me wrong, exists in Scotland as well.  Many Scottish schools are not teaching Scottish history in their classes as the Brit government  wouldn't put it on the curriculum. They mabye think there will be another uprising if they teach us the truth about the history of our own country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When we go to Culloden, Sherrifmuir etc  we go there as Jacobites not re-enactors to pay our respects to the fallen clansmen who fought for the House of Stuart, so when HRH Prince Michael of Albany landed on Scottish shores with his claims he was the only man willing to put himself forward for Scotland.  Ihave known the man for years and have become close, I see first hand how passionately he feels about Scotland  and  think that  if he is not who he says he is why would  he have stayed here for the last 20+ years fighting Scotland's corner while being hounded by the state.
Finally I would like to think that everyone who wears a WHITE COCKADE on their bonnet  is a true Jacobite and not a pretend one, for the House of Stuart still exists and the fight will continue to restore it to it's proper place regardless of any state persecution
Fear God Honour the King
 
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Reply #10 - 11/24/03 at 19:05:52

Govanhill_Jacobite   Offline
Member
Prosperity for Scotland
and No Union

Posts: 10
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I am a  latter day Jacobite and have met the Prince and I believe he is who he says he is.
I have heard him speak and spoken to himself on one to ones and you feel the passion he has for this country.
I firmly believe that he would make a great King of Scots and atleast we would have a King interested in this country not some German Queen who could not give a txss for this country.
As what has been said I do this for the love of my country not some hobby  and hopefully one day the Stuarts will rule  the Scots again
Fear God Honour The King
 
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Reply #11 - 11/24/03 at 19:39:13

Jacobite   Offline
Member
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Aberdeen/Scotland

Posts: 42
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Ah Brian,you old worm can opener you.
 

Heres Tae The King Sir Ye Ken who I mean Sir
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Reply #12 - 11/24/03 at 20:32:27

David_White   Offline
Senior Member
Ne Parcas Nec Spernas
Near Celt Virginia-really

Posts: 90
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My thoughts are just this-

I don't know about Prince Michael of Albany, never read his book.
I'm all for Scotlands independance but the Stuart reign of Scotland etc., 
is finished. 

If  Prince Michael of Albany claims to be who he is, he must take a
DNA test, if he doesn't want to do it  or back it up he's just the "youngest of Pretenders"
(has he taken a dna test?)

dave
 
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Reply #13 - 11/25/03 at 00:11:28

Brian Carpenter   Offline
Unit Commander
Port Crane, NY

Posts: 237
*****
 
Hee!  I knew this would be fun!!  Brendan, you've done a fine job of rallying your troops...!
I'm too much of a Jeffersonian republican to overcome my abhorrance of royalty/nobility, but the numbers of Prince Mike's loyal supporters is rather impressive.  He must be a convincing fellow in person....
An independent Scotland is the main aim (and hopefully a trend AWAY from left-wing ideology!!!).
 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #14 - 11/25/03 at 10:03:19

collin_king   Offline
Senior Member
Collin King AKA Srgt Calien
Mac Gregor
tampa florida

Posts: 76
***
 
An independent Scotland is the main aim (and hopefully a trend AWAY from left-wing ideology!!!).

And from the other end of the spectruim lets hope he Doesnt...(Grin)
 

A prince can mak a belted knight, &&A marquis, duke, an a' that! &&But an honest man's aboon his might - &&Guid faith, he mauna fa' that! &&For a' that, an a' that, &&Their dignities, an a' that, &&
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