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Religion vs. Politics (Read 7392 times)
07/02/06 at 00:04:22

Alistair_Buchanan   Offline
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Of Clan MacLaren
Williamsvile, VT

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Greeting to all, first I would like to say this is my first posting on this site and I look forward to gleaning information from the collective knowledge of the members of this forum.

A friend and I have bean in an argument for some time as to whether religion or politics played a grater role in the thought process and motivations for the ordinary foot soldier in the Jacobite army?  He (pro religious motivations) points out the overall tendency towards religion in the primary documentation surviving from the period. I on the other hand (pro political motivations) point out that there where protestant Jacobites who didn’t like parliament medaling with the royal lines.
Dose anyone have any insight into this?
 

-Beannachd Leibh-
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Reply #1 - 07/02/06 at 13:18:36

Brian Carpenter   Offline
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Port Crane, NY

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I think it's erroneous to consider the motivations of the common Jacobite fighting man in the same way we would those of a more modern volunteer or enlistee.  With the feudal-style culture that existed in Scotland at the time, these men were in the ranks because they were required to be there (as tenants) by their lairds or chiefs.  Those who tried to avoid such service were often forcibly "press ganged", or coerced by threats, to obey their superiors' summons to duty.

The motivations of the Jacobite leadership is more complex of course.  I would tend to think the political outweighed the religious.  The old "anti-Campbell" motivation was still in play for many of the Jacobite clan chiefs...!
 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #2 - 07/02/06 at 14:40:56

Vicar Wm Gray Beard Abernethy   Offline
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As one who portrays a Presbyterian vicar in the service of the Army of King James at re-enactments, I have enjoyed greatly the research into this personae and the historical detail available on the presence on non-Catholics serving the Bonnie Prince.  I have come to believe that, along with the truth of what Brian Carpenter has shared about the commoners' reasons for serving being other than personal convictions re: politics or religion, those Presbyterians marching with HRH Prince Charles Edward Stuart were, for the most part, carrying residual resentment for the Cromwellian years, and were either those who opposed the Roundheads themselves, or the descendents of those who did.  They could not support the religion of King James III and VIII and his son, Prince Charles, and were very vocal and adament about their opposition to and resistance of any attempt at dictating matters of faith and practice to them by anyone, king or bishop, Catholic, Anglican or otherwise,  But neither could they support the regicidal tendencies of the ruling Anglicans, either, who had killed a Scottish Stuart king.
 

Nemo me impune lacessit (Latin for "Let none tread on me with impunity," the motto of the bull thistle, the flower of Scotland)
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Reply #3 - 07/02/06 at 20:58:49

Alistair_Buchanan   Offline
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Williamsvile, VT

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ok... thank you for your insights, I was fairly sure that nether of us where entirely correct and that the truth laid somewhere in-between our two different stances. I had never thought of the "press gang" end of it though?
 

-Beannachd Leibh-
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Reply #4 - 07/02/06 at 21:36:14

Brian Carpenter   Offline
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Oh, yes!  Clan chiefs would at times send armed parties around their lands to gather in reluctant, or "uncommited" clansmen.  Another tactic was to threaten to burn someone's roof down around his ears if he didn't turn to! 
This is why you sometimes see a "Master Burner" listed among a chief 's or laird's retainers, and is the origin of our modern term - to be "fired."
 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #5 - 07/02/06 at 22:08:39

Alistair_Buchanan   Offline
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interesting, what percentage do you think where pressed into service compared to those that volunteered?
 

-Beannachd Leibh-
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Reply #6 - 07/02/06 at 23:59:43
steve Woods   Guest

 
"Although the news be spread of late throughout our scottish nation; that e're long shall be defeat, by Papists their invasion, yet presbyters be not dismay'd, but look to heaven for help and aid; and let it never once be said, that we shall prove faint hearted, for we ourselves aquit, themselves shall fall into the fir(? illeg.), Which Papists diggs to catch the (Illeg.), they shall be made to smart it, whigs join in one do not devide in circumstantial Matters, or el's mischief shall you betide, from French and Romish Traitors, who are now lying at the catch, true Presbyterians to dispatch, your ruin they contrive and hatch,,,without true scripture on your side, ye are to blame for all the name, of whigs and there's anend on'tsome are counted honest folk, among a foolish people... that does debate 'gainst church and state"
                  ("A Balsam for Backsliders, or some hints anent the oath of abjuration" probable date published 1702-1712, unknown city, Scottland; http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/15743  National Library of Scottland)
   
     hummmm, what do you think? some religion in there posing as politics?  I think so.  if you go and read the page where I found it you will find:
"The Oath of Abjuration, referred to in the title, was originally enforced by King William III (William of Orange) during a time of much religious and political struggle. It was introduced as part of the Security of Succession Act of 1702, and required the taker of the oath to renounce their allegiance to the Stuarts and the Church of Rome. Initially intended for those in public office, in many places it was required of most of the adult male population. This broadside is written from the Protestant perspective and, as such, welcomes the instigation of the oath."

     admitedly, it is a bit earlier than 1745, but it's still Jacobite.  Also, France, which is A Catholic Nation, promises aid, although it is evidently not delivered.  if you look at  the Seven Years' war, my period of expertise, France, Austria, Sweden, Russia and some of the Southern Germanic Principalities (All of Whom are Catholic), go to War with Great Briton and Prussia (Who are both Protestant).  before that, the same is Generally true.
     one of the quotes from a book I used for research a while back, in the chapter on the Seven years' war is a quote from a letter from Frederick of Prussia to George of England looking for Aid in his defence.  the first reason for giving aid he states as the French and their allies are "...endevoring to ruin the Protestant cause..."(Durant, Will and Ariel. The Story of Civilization X: Rousseau and
Revolution.  Simon and Schuster, New York,  1967.).
     I think there might just be a very close tie  between the two elements, politics and Religion.    And From what I've read about Ireland, which does relate to Scottland, Religion was a very large motovation to the lower classes when they staged their numerous rebellions. 
By the Way, I'm Mr. 'Buchanan's' friend which was mentioned in the first post.
 
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Reply #7 - 07/03/06 at 01:06:03

Webmaster Emeritus Kitty   Offline
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I'm not sure that it CAN be separated neatly into religion vs. politics. I tend to agree with Brian that a whole lot of people just went along with what was decided on their behalf (and clan chiefs could be rather  draconian in their methods of getting people to cooperate)...but I think that tradition (which encompasses both religion and politics, among other things) would have been a deciding factor for middle-to-lower-class-ish people who actually had a free choice to make....and I'm not sure you can break it down much further than that with any accuracy (what a cop-out, eh? Typical M'Gregor, though). I think that the waters were a whole lot muddier by 1745, with a LOT of competing interests coming into play. Nothing was as easy to decipher or understand as it had been even 30 years earlier, and I'm not sure you'll ever be able to unearth an underlying motivation because it WAS such a miserable mess by that point.

I also think that Ireland had a distinct and correlating  religious/class split that fanned the flames, and IMO, that wasn't as clear-cut in Scotland (choosing words carefully here, given my own family tradition)...you didn't have the powderkeg of a ruling/upper class that was almost completely of one religion, and a peasantry/lower class that was overwhelmingly of another.

I think this is an interesting discussion...though I don't think you're going to get a clear answer in the end. At least not from me. Wink
 
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