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Irishmen involved in the '45 (Read 20767 times)
09/24/06 at 19:05:30
Steve Woods   Guest

 
  My Dear knowledgable fellows,
I am interested in portraying an Irishman who was formerly in French (Wild Geese) Service, who went to scotland when his enlistment was up in early '45.
the problem starts here:  I haven't a clue as to what I'd have for clothing (Aside from leftover french uniform pieces), esp. headware, weapons, equipment and pretty much everything else, and I haven't found much on the subject. 
your opinions, facts and documentation would be greatly appreciated.  documentation would be nice, seeing as I'm a history Major in College at this point and I've been drilled to not take anything without some sort of sited sourses!
Thank you,
Your humble Irish Servant,
Steven Woods (Or McGrath)
 
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Reply #1 - 09/25/06 at 14:44:14

Slainte   Offline
Member
JE SUIS PREST
Rösrath near Cologne, Germany

Posts: 45
**
 
Dear Steven,
take a look at this... http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=Q3585

I hope it helps
Slainte
 
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Reply #2 - 09/25/06 at 17:18:52

Henrik_B._Boegh   Offline
As Good as it gets
Prosperity to Schottland
and NO UNION!
Tvedestrand, Norway!

Posts: 328
****
 
Hi Steven,

I found a link to reenactment group which portrays the Irish Piquets!
http://www.geocities.com/irishpiquets/

You'll find some good info there. In Like Hungry Wolfes by Stuart Reid, there is a good watercolour sketch of what one of the regiments present at Culloden were dressed and equipped like. The watercolour is made by Gerry Embleton, so it has good research Smiley

If you need a musket that's proper for the Wild Gees of Charlies Jacobite army, I think you'd go right by getting a French Model 1728. The Epee du Soldat that G.Gedned Goodwin ( http://www.gggoodwin.com )offers has a good reputation and is correct for the period.

I look forward to hearing (or seing) how your kit turns out! Good luck, and God bless ye wild shamrock-lovin' whiskey-drinkin' Irish mad man! :-D Hehe!

Cheers,
Henrik
 

God save King James VIII!&&&&Constant and True.
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Reply #3 - 09/25/06 at 20:54:26

Brian Carpenter   Offline
Unit Commander
Port Crane, NY

Posts: 237
*****
 
Steve,
A fellow being discharged from any European or British army unit would almost certainly be required to turn in his uniform and arms as royal property. 
So, unless you are going to portray a deserter who has absconded with all of his kit, your theoretical Irishman would travel to Scotland to join the jacobites (probably stopping at home in Ireland on the way) in typical civilian garb of the period, and perhaps with personal sidearms (smallsword or hanger, pistol) if he was of means.  Upon joining the Prince's army in Scotland, he would then obtain arms from stores available to them at the time.
Of course, you could portray a soldier in one of the actual Franco-Irish companies that were attached to the Jacobite forces....
 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #4 - 09/27/06 at 01:46:33
steven woods   Guest

 
thank you gentelmen,
     I appreciate the help, but I still have one small question, which maybe you can answer Mr Carpenter:
      the arms issued to the Irish Piquets and other french-made arms that were sent over, were they the newer 1728s or 1717s?  that's the major thing I was wondering about. it seems to me the new pattern would go to French Army units first, and the surplus 'obsilete' guns would go to allies.

     anyways, for the rest of my kit, I made a bonnet in about an hour, I've obviously got britches, shirts and the like, I am, after all, a tailor by Re-enating trade!  I have a chopped-up French Marine waistcoat, and haversack, canteen etc. 

     my weapon as of now is under construction, a French style fowler that one of my friends is doing assembly on for me.

    I've got the basics down, now it's for the details.

     I was thinking that Irishmen were not confined to the Irish regiments as far as the reading I have done sais, and since I have a waistcoat from the marines I figured I should take that angle until I have time to make my new coat and waistcoat.  also, from what I've read if you were discharged, you might be able to keep your uniform peices, or at least parts of them if you happened to be  on the two-year issue cycle and new uniforms were on the way.
     I would also like to look into the option of being an irishman who is not afiliated with one of the irish regiments.    if that's the case, even baring French service altogether, what do you think would I have for equipment?

thank you again,
Steve Woods
(Mad Irishman Tailor)
 
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Reply #5 - 09/27/06 at 11:17:53

Daniel Foster   Offline
Full Member
Uaireigin Cu, Doannon
Cu
Austell, Ga

Posts: 158
***
 
Steve,

Welcome to the forum, sir. Should you become a member, you will most likely find the answers to some of your questions in the "member's only" sections. As far as French weapons, the M1717 is most likely the long arm sent to the Jacobites, and if I remember correctly the 1690 and 1728 as well. I have one (1717) that served me well but have been using a 1728 Bess for the last year or so. Sorry for the lack of documentation at the moment but I've been working like crazy rebuilding since Saturday after my computer crashed a few weeks ago. Lost everything! Hopefully I'll be smart enough in the future to make back ups.

Again, welcome sir,

Daniel
 
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Reply #6 - 09/27/06 at 13:06:53

Chris Timm   Offline
Unit Commander

Posts: 140
*****
 
Hi Steve,
all of the regiments in Prince Charles' Army during the '45 were raised in Scotland with a few odds and ends picked up during the march to England. So the issue for an Irishman would be how did he connect himself to either a clan or lowland regiment? 

To me, the best potential for developing an independent Irish persona would be in the lowland regiments since they drew from the area and anyone who would have worked/lived there.   In that case a more continental look for clothing/kit would be totally appropriate.

Not having drilled deeper into the muster rolls I can't say for sure, but you could make a credible arguement for that if you're looking to be part of a non-French Army unit serving with the Jacobites.
Hope that helps

all the best,
Chris
 
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Reply #7 - 09/27/06 at 20:49:44

Brian Carpenter   Offline
Unit Commander
Port Crane, NY

Posts: 237
*****
 
Some further thoughts:

-The French "marines" were not really marines, but colonial troops under the authority of the French "Ministry of Marine" who oversaw overseas matters.  So, that concept doesn't really apply to the `45 Rebellion "theater."  French "marines" would have been found in N. America, the Caribbean, and India at that time.
- I agree that the M1728 muskets would have been reserved for the use of regular French units, and older types such as the M1717's used for shipment to "allies" such as the Jacobites.
- I don't think too many Irish commoners would have been found in the Jacobite army in Scotland.  Why go off to risk one's neck in such a "foriegn" war? (The Irishmen in French army units are obviously a different matter.)  Those who were  present in the Prince's army were some Irish gentleman-adventurers with Jacobite (i.e. anti-English) sympathies.  These would've have been fellows of means with their own weapons (your French fowling piece will be prefect!) and such, and probably wearing quite good clothes of the typical European (not Highland!) cut.  Your field equipment would basically be a gentleman's hunting kit.

This might be a fun impression for you...!
 

"You will be a brother to pirates and corsairs" -from the Old Charges of Freemasonry
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Reply #8 - 09/28/06 at 02:08:33

Steve_McGrath   Offline
Senior Member
Compagnies Franches de
la Marine, Avec MacLaren
claremont NH

Posts: 97
***
 
again thank you for your input!
    I don't think I want to do upper-class/person of means, that'd mean I'd need to use manners, and get something other than my former-axe-handle that serves faithfully as my hand-to-hand sidearm (who needs a sword, I mean really, drink and potatoes and women are much better things to spend what money you have on! and it was free.). 
     the Jacobite sentiments, as in liking to use English as targets runs through Ireland throughout the 18th century. I mean, they made it illegal to be catholic and Irish in Ireland because you were in the way of the English Protestant sheep!  everyone on the island wants to beat the english.
    so, even if I was lower class, as in poor journey-man tailor from tiperary, if I had had any training and a means to join, I would, personally.  the unit I attach is the issue, as Mr Timm pointed out.
     by the way, was the law against fire-arms in the hands of the Irish already in Effect by 1745, or did that come later?
     another thing that struck me today, could I get attached to the army as a messenger/ runner/ orderly type or was that done on the regiment level?

     les companies fraches de la marine, naval troops, were posted on ships and in France, guarding ports.   after researching my osprey book [men at arms no. 313 (Louis XV's army 5, colonial and naval troops)] I have found that their justacorps were slightly different, but their small-clothes were the same as most others in the American colonies.  I think I could pull that off, provided the items I have and my current monetary straits.  if I do that, I'd have some sailing experience, I would have seen some of the world (canada maybe...) had good training on linear and open light-infantry tactics. with this level of training, I think I'd have an easy time getting in to a regiment, provided I adapted to the language  change.
     I'm going to do some more looking into which regiments were there, and what nes are arround now, then I'll try to link up with one.
         thank you.
 

Le Service de mon Fusil, Pour L'Eglise, Famile, Pays et les Pommes de Terré.
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Reply #9 - 09/28/06 at 18:07:47

Chris Timm   Offline
Unit Commander

Posts: 140
*****
 
You're thinking very dynamically and outside the box Steve and I'd encourage you to keep it up. The best thing about persona development is the ability to personalize it!
I think your best bet still remains to find a connection that would bring you to lowland Scotland, Edinburgh especially or maybe Perth, in some sort of trade or common role.  That would allow you to connect with one of the regiments or in a staff role as messenger etc.
Keep up the good work!
Chris
 
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Reply #10 - 09/28/06 at 19:59:11

Henrik_B._Boegh   Offline
As Good as it gets
Prosperity to Schottland
and NO UNION!
Tvedestrand, Norway!

Posts: 328
****
 
How about this, Steve; You've been serving onboard a ship with home port in Scotland. When the news reaches you that Charlie has landed, you take action, and together with some jacobite Scots also working on the tradeship, you take immediate leave, and set for joining Charlie. You are lucky enough to reach Edinburgh just before Charlie is marching on Copes army at Prestonpans.
Does this work? Add a bit more background history etc.

Cheers,
Henrik
 

God save King James VIII!&&&&Constant and True.
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Reply #11 - 09/30/06 at 02:40:38

Steve_McGrath   Offline
Senior Member
Compagnies Franches de
la Marine, Avec MacLaren
claremont NH

Posts: 97
***
 
well gentilemen, here's what I've come up with so far...
    " I once was apprenticed to a tailor in Dublin for several years, learning the trrade and even achieving the rank of foreman's assistant in my master's shop.
     one night, after a terrible happening down the street I was forced to leave, and I was sent upon a ship headed for Amsterdam by my parish priest.
     after the ship arrived at it's real destination of Le Harve, I got off, and joined the Companie Franches de la marine, naval troops.  durring three years of service, mostly on ships, I again found myself upon the shores of france, at Le Harve.
    I found a ship headed to amsterdam, and signed on one-way. it came to pass that another ship, home port of edinbourough, and that being the closest I could get to Ireland at the time, I took it, again one-way.
    by now it is late '44, and we arrived in early '45.  then I started walking across the highlands, plying my trade and an old chair-leg to gain food, shelter and the other nesisities of life.  I made myself new equipment, acquired a fusil from one of the Highland gentilemen I was fortunate enough to meet and outfit, and he told me to head to Inverness, where His Most Catholic Majestie's son had landed.  I rolled up my sewing kit, folded up my patterns and shouldered my musket, singing all the songs I knew of and giving praise to the Lord as I proceded hence.
     Finally, I can fire at the English on their own Home soil, and bring my two skills, tailoring and warfare, to the service of the church, Ireland and my family there. England beware, Le Petite Irlandais est Revenue!"


Well, how'd it go?  then I just need to fill in the regiment number and company letter of who I joined...
thank you, I hope it passes.
Steve
 

Le Service de mon Fusil, Pour L'Eglise, Famile, Pays et les Pommes de Terré.
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Reply #12 - 09/30/06 at 10:46:31

Henrik_B._Boegh   Offline
As Good as it gets
Prosperity to Schottland
and NO UNION!
Tvedestrand, Norway!

Posts: 328
****
 
I like it! But I have one question; do you know the tailoring trade?

Cheers,
Henrik
 

God save King James VIII!&&&&Constant and True.
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Reply #13 - 10/01/06 at 17:12:42

Steve_McGrath   Offline
Senior Member
Compagnies Franches de
la Marine, Avec MacLaren
claremont NH

Posts: 97
***
 
yes sir! I am Le Cuillere Rouge, and I do tailoring for Reenactors! and, true to History, I am the worst dressed of my customers!  need anything?
 

Le Service de mon Fusil, Pour L'Eglise, Famile, Pays et les Pommes de Terré.
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Reply #14 - 10/01/06 at 17:14:49

Henrik_B._Boegh   Offline
As Good as it gets
Prosperity to Schottland
and NO UNION!
Tvedestrand, Norway!

Posts: 328
****
 
HAHAHAHA! Cheesy
Great. I'll think on you when I have enouch money for a some new highland short cloathes Smiley

Cheers,
Henrik
 

God save King James VIII!&&&&Constant and True.
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