I See your point McGrath, but perhaps the greater point would be to point out that the War of Spanish Succession has never bean discussed, the War of Austrian Succession was a mere cat fight compared to the Spanish one, it brought warfare on the greatest scale that would be seen until that angry little Corsican tried to take over the world. and perhaps the more important fact that has bean almost totally overlooked is that it was the act that sparks the flame was the French supporting James III for the Throne after the death of his father, in all right it might of bean called the war of English succession, the end of this war also brought the time when the Jacobite causes had the greatest chance of success, just prior to the 1715 rebellion. All facts that have bean sorely over looked if you ask me......

That particular "what if" has bean discussed at great length in many diffract books, and it is doubtful that it would of bean such a cu de gras as has bean suggested.

The first point to make is a sore one for any Jacobite to admit, that is, that even if the Jacobites had taken London it must be remembered that the King had a second power base in Hanover, so actually taking the town wouldn’t of bean the deathblow that many have speculated, they most likely just would of fled to Germany just to return with the full force of there allies, leading to continued hostilities the with no easily discernable winner.
(Research Paper, C. Harper, 2006")

The second point is that in reality the French assistance did FAR more harm than good. The English have always bean nearly xenophobic in there foreign policies, and even small numbers of foreign troops that appeared in the 45' incensed many English, "The French telling the English nation who there king is going to be!!!!! Preposterous!".  Contemporary reports out of parliament just prior to the death of Queen Ann said "If  the Pretender is the first in England before the Elector arrives then he most likely would be crowned, unless he arrives with French troops at his back..." also many who had bean loyal Jacobites earlier in the century had actually changed allegiances after the earlier rebellions due to the French and Spanish assistances "This as a matter for the English and it should be settled by the English" obviously that was an English Jacobite who said that but other accounts say that that was wildly spread sentiment and most likely accounted for the diminished support that the Stuarts received in 45.
(The History of England in the Eighteenth century, Vol. 1, Lecky< 1874)

The third reason is that the English actually generally believed that a French invasion was coming and there for positioned large garrisons on the southern coast to hold off this turn of events, I don’t have the book on me and I don’t remember the page number anyhow, but as I recall the number was nearly 10,000 men. the French would of bean hard pressed to brake thru such a defense and as has bean afore mentioned if a French army sat on London telling the British nation who was going to be there monarch it is likely that every man woman and child with strength enough to lift a pitch fork would of descended on London to drive the French from there shores with such a fever that the French would of swam the channel to escape them.
(Battles of the '45, K. Thomason & F. Buist, 1962)

and the final point is one that to my knowledge has only bean addressed once, and that is James III, Louis XV and Philip of Spain are all descended from the French House of Bourbon, and were all of different generations, James was the Great grandchild of there common ancestor Louis was the Great Great Grandchild And Philip was the Great Great Great Grandchild. So if James became a crowned monarch with a nation behind him, he, as higher member of the family would of had a legitimate command over Louis and Phillip, and in some of Louis’s own correspondence to a Clergyman out side of Paris spell out all this and his concern over the rebellions success, of coarse all that was compounded by the fact that Louis’s Wig had a higher IQ than the head it sat upon. In fact there is some sketchy documentation that Louis actual plan, which he shared with his grandfather before him was simply to use the Jacobites to his own means and send them to England as a distraction, not a Cou di gras.
(The Bonnie Prince Charlie, Kybett, 1988)

Steve_McGrath wrote on 02/11/07 at 21:24:58:



But you have to remember, that that may have made the xenophobic response worse. England and Ireland don't exactly have a great history together, i don't that much about the 18th C but in the 17th C many people rose up in arms because of the threat of an invasion of Irish Catholics, so the fact that the Irish were involved, may not have helped calm the storm.

As i said i don't know what relations and feelings between England and Ireland were like in the 18th C, just pointing out that the help being Irish may not be a good thing.

Wile both of those are good points you have to remember that what ever the nationality of the individual soldiers, they would still be acting under the order of a French king, so most likely the British populace wouldn’t of cared or even considered there land of origin as the origin of the whole anger lies with a French monarch telling British people who was going to be there king.

We were only there to mess up the British war efforts in the designs of Louis XV, and seeing as James could out think Louis and Philip combined, the French troops only made up a fraction of the total army and in reality the French involvement was secondary to many other Political, Social and Military forces at play, saying that it was a planed failure by the French is allot like saying the First Punic War was started to make the Sub Alpine Gauls happy.

And you’re best off choosing your words well when you’re insulting MY loyalty. That is a subject that i take most seirously.

Ah, I appoligise for that comment gentilemen, I thought I was implying the shock it was to mine as well.
   until I was reading more into the subject of this wider world relation to the greater war and political  back ground I was also quite vehimently looking at it as a triely patriotic attempt to restore the King and, for myself, The Church.
     but, it seems that the scotts were in fact very loyal to their prince, and the prince did intend to follow the effort through.  it was just the 250 year distachment and better global view of the situation that the "Shock to loyalties" came up.
     so, I guess I'm the target for a mock-trial and hanging at Colluden then?
      again, you have my appoligies for the out of context comment.

    It may actually be overstating things to say the French WANTED the Jacobites to fail, an important point to make is that James III actually abdicated his throne in favor of Charles to gain favors with the French, that way "King Charles III" would be of the same generation in the Bourbon line as Louis thus negating that worry.
    "I am Charles Edward, King of England; my father gave up his rights to the throne to me and I fought to assert them"
(Candide, Chapter XXVI, Voltaire, 1759)
    Also, the French support was actively sought by the Stuarts and only grudgingly given in the end, had it bean the other way around I might of agreed with your assessment, but most likely the predominate French attitude was milled neglect.
    Please note that the personal thoughts, actions and opinions of the Stuart family in exile are all well documented in the Stuart Papers, a collection of some 70,000 documents written by Charles, his father, his brother and there various aids, these documents were in storage in Italy until the 19th century when they were taken to England in batches after being purchased by Queen Victoria and is nowadays stored in the Round Tower at Windsor Castle. These accounts were all gathered together and made into a fantastic biography by a lady who dos a fair and unbiased telling of the tale, and I would suggest everyone who is interested in the Stuarts as people and not just figures to read it as it also gives a lot of important history witch hasn’t bean addressed much.

Bonnie Prince Charlie
Susan Maclean Kybett
ISBN: 0-396-08496-6